Benjamin Zachariah on the anti CAA agitation

Benjamin Zachariah who teaches, or does 'Research', in Germany has been interviewed by a guy named Chakrabutty or something of that sort.

Does Zachariah say anything which isn't false or foolish? Let us see.

Ramachandra Guha recently cautioned protesters to be “careful with their words” and to not use the term “fascism” to describe what is happening. What is your opinion on this question?

Well, clearly Ram Guha isn’t taking into account the long development of the Sangh parivar. They were convinced followers, first of the Italian Fascists, and then of the German Nazis, and they still follow that tradition, with a movement that is based on the use of paramilitary forces loyal to the party for extra-legal blackmail and violence. Why, then, should we be ‘careful with our words’?

For the excellent reason that the Sangh Parivar has its roots in the pre-War Revolutionary movements. It predates Fascism and Nazism. By contrast, the INC represents the anti-Revolutionary 'naram dal' of Congress. However- as Zachariah knows, because he edited a book with detailed information on this topic- its 'National Militia' was created by Dr. Hardikar, who was a disciple of 'garam dal' leader Lala Lajpat Rai in America. Hardikar published the views of Prof. Puntambekar, who was an admirer of Mussolini, and who called for a less Gandhian, more militaristic, Dictator for India. Dr. Hedgewar was influenced by Hardikar and, while still a member of the Congress Party, created the RSS on the model of Hardikar's Congress Seva Dal. But it was a weak and provincial affair compared to the Congress outfit. Where it excelled was in Social Work and the breaking down of caste barriers.
Both Motilal and Jawaharlal Nehru were enthusiastic members of the Seva Dal. Nehru wrote in his autobiography- '"We were surprised to find later how much opposition there was to the Seva Dal among leading Congressmen. Some said that this was a dangerous departure, as it meant introducing a military element in the Congress, and the military arm might overpower the civil authority ! Others seemed to think that the only discipline necessary was for the volunteers to obey orders issued from above, and for the rest it was hardly desirable for volunteers even to walk in step. At the back of the mind of some was the notion that the idea of having trained and drilled volunteers was somehow inconsistent with the Congress principle of non-violence."

Another enthusiast for militaristic methods was Netaji Bose who dressed up in a fake comic opera Generalissimo's uniform to preside over Congress. Later, with the help of the Indian Nazi Party, he escaped to Hitler's Germany and got Indians to join the Waffen SS. He named regiments of his I.N.A after Nehru and Gandhi.

As Niradh Chaudhri pointed out, most Indians were pro-Hitler. That is why Zail Singh, as Union Home Minister, praised him in the Indian Parliament. Some western educated people used the term 'Fascist' as an insult. Feroze Gandhi described his wife as a Fascist for dismissing the Communist Government of West Bengal.  But neither Fascism nor Nazism means anything to Indian people. One advertises nothing but one's deracination and political irrelevance by using such terms.

There are plenty of parties in India which rely upon thugs. Mamta's TMC could be described as Fascist because its thugs beat the shit out of Commies. But the BJP does not have that reputation- save, perhaps, in Kerala.

Having said that, I don’t think quibbling about definitions makes sense – I can see plenty of reasons to oppose right-wing movements that are not (yet) fascist movements. We can agree that some think that this lot are fascists, and some don’t, but we agree that we must oppose their attempts to turn India into a monolingual, monofaith authoritarian country.

So Christian Missionaries and Islamic Tablighis should be banned. They want everyone to convert to their sect.

What we must ensure though is that we don’t wait till we have ‘full fascism’ to recognise a movement as fascist – by that time it’s too late to oppose them.

Rubbish! The British Union of Fascists was recognized as fully Fascist because...urm... it had Fascism in its name. Similarly, the American Nazi Party was recognized as being Nazi because it had Nazi in its name. 

There was also an Indian Nazi Party founded by the husband of Savitri Devi. It may have helped Bose who, of course, recruited Indians for the Waffen S.S. Congress does not seem to opposed this type of Indian Nazi. Nambiar was appointed Ambassador to West Germany where, no doubt, he got on like a house on fire with other ex-Nazis.

Bal Thackeray's Shiv Sena was often described as Fascist. The guy made no bones about his admiration for Hitler. This hasn't stopped Congress from allying with it.

Clearly it is never 'too late' to oppose a Fascist movement which is open about its ideology. However, it may be preferable to ally with it so as to make money or gain power.

By contrast opposing Parties because you think they might become Fascist is just as wrong as discriminating against people because you think they might become muggers or racists.

State power isn't worth much if the police get beaten up and the army refuses to shoot people.

They have captured state power and use the full capacity of the state to further their goals.

What good did having state power do previous administrations? Did they or did they not get booted out of office for corruption or incompetence or the high price of onions

Do you think that state capture is now complete?

Even if it is, state capture is irrelevant because we know the BJP can be booted out of any State, or at the Center, if it fails to perform.

We must distinguish between fascism as a movement in search of power, and a fascism that has captured the state.

Why? What good would it do?

The Sangh parivar has nearly completely captured the state, and coordinated its institutions so that they are subservient or loyal to the needs of the party and the leader. The courts are no longer free, the police work at the behest of the ruling party, some armed forces personnel appear to be politically supporting the ruling party, and a parliamentary majority is being misused to pass laws that are incompatible with the constitution – but since the courts have been captured, who is to say so?

Only the Nicaraguan horcrux of my neighbor's cat can speak out because everybody else has been either bought off or paid off or is now teaching cretins in Germany.

Everyone should be familiar with, or look up, the meaning of the German word ‘gleichshaltung’, which would sound harmless enough in English because it means ‘coordination’, but was used by the Nazis to describe their control of all institutions, associations and forms of public life in the country. Nothing was to remain outside of their control.

But the Nazis lost. Hitler ate a bullet. Coordination does not have any magical powers. The German General Staff was as stupid as shit. It made the same mistake twice because the French were too stupid or cowardly to develop a credible offensive doctrine.

Why the fuck is Zachariah talking about this? Have Muslims been removed from Government jobs? Has the army sworn a personal oath of loyalty to Modi? No. So this cretin is talking nonsense.

But one can argue there are many salient differences between fascists of the past and of the present.

One could also chop off one's own head and shove it up one's own pooper.

Fascism in most parts of the world was discredited after the Second World War. ‘Neo’-fascists are ‘neo’ because their old languages and practices no longer seemed credible. Now they have begun to regroup, and we can see that ‘neo’ is ‘palaeo’ too – once people have forgotten that the old languages were discredited, they can also come back into use, alongside the new terminology developed in the new context. The idea of Hindus as a ‘race’, and as ‘Aryan’, would have sounded ridiculous to many people after 1945, but it’s back in a big way, and no one laughs.

They do laugh, Zachariah- but only at you.

India has the longest-running continuous fascist movement in the world – the RSS was founded in 1925.

But the RSS is still no registered as a political party. So it can't be Fascist. By contrast the Congress Seva Dal, on which the RSS was modeled, is still around. Zachariah, an ignorant Eurocentric fool, does not understand that Asian countries had political movements of Mussolini's sort before Europe. The Chinese KMT is the classic example. Essentially, the notion is that 'Nationalist Socialist' Army officers should take a leadership role and control every aspect of Society.

It’s nearly 100 years old. Their internal language hasn’t changed; they’re still using texts by Savarkar or Golwalkar for indoctrinating their members – and Golwalkar famously thought that the Nazi example of getting rid of Jews from Germany should be followed in India for Muslims. In his We, Or Our Nationhood Defined, he wrote,

“…To keep up the purity of the nation and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of Semitic races – the Jews. National pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by.”

Back then, Gandhi thought Jews should not oppose the Nazis. They should cheerfully comply with whatever the Nazis demanded of them. Meanwhile Congress leaders like Govind Vallabh Pant described Gandhi as the Il Duce and Fuehrer of India.

India did purge the Muslims- as a political force. They were kept around for their labor power. However, the RSS did not play any role in the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in East Punjab or Jammu. The Mahasabha may have been helpful in putting down the Rezakar in Hyderabad. However, the ban on the RSS was lifted because Congress thought it might come in useful to beat up Commies. But there was no such need. The Left was happy to prop up corrupt Congress coalitions.

They’ve presented themselves differently to the outside world, depending on their sense of strength or impunity. They were on the defensive after they killed Gandhi, and then they weren’t defensive any more, reinventing themselves as a ‘social service’ organisation. The old language then gradually came back to the forefront.

Says a Christian who teaches in Germany.  Maybe he just hates Hindus.

What in the RSS’s actions reminds you of fascism?

This guy did not live in Germany or Italy during the Thirties. He can't be reminded of Fascism. He can only be reminded of stuff he read about Fascism. Similarly he has no direct knowledge of the RSS. He can only talk about things he has read about in anti-RSS propaganda.

Fascism works with a repertoire of concepts that are clearly recognisable among the Sangh parivar. They don’t use the full repertoire all of the time – that’s contextually and politically bounded.

Nothing 'works with a repertoire of concepts'. This cretin may have a very extensive such repertoire. But does he have any power? The cretin is teaching cretins in Germany. He has fucking dreadlocks! How lame is that?

The repertoire tends to include a claim to an organic and primordial nationalism – the idea that the nation is in blood and soil, and everyone who belongs has to share that. It also includes a controlling statism that disciplines the members of the organic nation to act as, for and in the organic nation.

 All this is quite reasonable. It would be foolish to say 'we have no link to the soil. We don't want a State that controls things. Instead we want to grow dreadlocks and go on the road as a Bob Marley tribute band.  The only State we are interested in is the State of being high. Vote for us we don't give a shit about what happens to you.'

Then, that nation must be purified and preserved by cleansing it of its impurities.

As opposed to dirtied by inviting criminals and terrorists from all over the place. It is very naughty of Modi to say 'make in your own toilet'. He should say shit on everything.

One can also see that this is a circular argument.

Whereas Zachariah's argument is a corkscrew. Don't sit on it accidentally.

It is in the service of preserving this organic nation that a paramilitarist tendency towards national discipline is invoked. The paramilitary will ensure that the nationals of that nation behave properly as nationals, or else they can be disciplined or punished. And it excludes those who they don’t believe belong, in a variety of ways.

Every nation has guys in uniform who do stuff like this. The Indian police has a paramilitary capacity. It has done a lot of extra-judicial killing.

The coherence of the fascist repertoire is maintained by inciting a sense of continuous crisis and alarm about the potential decay of the organic nation if discipline and purity is not preserved. The use of political violence is supposed to be purificatory.

But cretins like Zachariah have been crying wolf about RSS Fascism for three decades now. They maintain and incite a sense of continuous crisis. They may also orchestrate mob violence. But where has it gotten them?

Which of these elements of the repertoire is not present in Sanghi ideology and practice?

All of them. Why? The Singh has a Hindutva ideology based on Hinduism- a subject most Indians know a lot about. Modern European history- not so much.

What are the different crises you see being fomented? Is their strategy working, and if so, what’s coming next?

The idea that a left-communist-liberal pact is diluting the strength of the nation, and fragmenting its natural unity – the reference to a mysterious ‘tukde tukde gang’ – is one attempt to create this crisis.

Zachariah is being silly. Campus Lefties did some stupid shit which the BJP took advantage of. But they didn't want to create a sense of crisis because that would be bad for the Economy- which is the only thing that matters, unless you have dreadlocks and teach cretins in Germany.

Another constant theme is of demographic danger, long discredited by experts – that Muslims procreate too quickly and will become a majority. That’s a theme that has been pushed by them since before independence. It’s a ‘loss of purity’ argument that also goes in the direction of weird claims about ‘love jihad’ and needing to rescue Hindu ‘girls’ from rapacious Muslim men.

The problem here is that Statisticians find that Muslims do have a higher demographic growth rate and it is true that the composition of some districts has changed. 'Love jihad' may be rare- but it does exist. So do Pakistani 'grooming gangs' preying on English kids. It isn't the RSS which says so. It is the Pakistani origin, Muslim, ex Home Secretary who is now the Chancellor of the British Exchequer.

Why does not Zachariah tell us that Islamic terrorism is a myth? There was never any such thing as Islamic State. Osama Bin Laden was a actually a Mormon lady who was killed because of she protested against Big Tobacco targeting kids.

The idea that India is being overrun by people who are not ‘naturally’ Indian is key to the whole CAA-NRC combination, of course.

Why? Because the Assam student agitation started when Indira Gandhi decided to give the vote to a few million Bangladeshis. The Nellie massacre of Muslims was the result. This forced the Center to commit to a Nationality Register. The Supreme Court took over the exercise and completed the work. That's it. That's the whole story.

Those who don’t ‘naturally’ belong to India-that-is-a-Hindu-Rashtra are at the moment primarily Muslims, because they are a majority among the minorities.

Where Muslims were in the majority they ethnically cleansed non-Muslims and formed their own States. Thus they were no longer Indians. If they crossed the border to settle in Indian territory the State had an obligation to detect and repatriate them.

But that can change very quickly – the targeting, and occasional murders, of Christians, Indian or foreign-born, is something no one should forget.

Nor should the murder of Hindus by Muslims or Christians or crazy Communists.

And anti-Dalit violence is not diminishing, for all the rhetoric of a united Hindu India against ‘outsiders’.

Because of dynastic, dominant caste, parties- not to mention the Communists whose Marichjhapi massacre of Namasudras was State led.

All these strategies work for a while. Moral panics can be created quite easily in the age of social media.

But Zachariah and his ilk have been doing nothing else for decades. But, the thing backfires. Why? These guys come across as ignorant and stupid. Thus people have come to despise the Academic disciplines they represent.

You mentioned that moral panics work for “a while”. Is there a sense that the time in which such tactics remain effective is running out? How much danger is there of all this toxicity resulting in something more devastating than the already heinous forms of everyday violence we are witnessing?

Each specific moral panic only works for a while. The thing with moral panics is that you have to keep upping the ante. 

Which is why these guys are now pretending that Indian Muslims will be deported of disenfranchised. They are crying wolf. When the Indian Muslim realizes he has been fooled, he will turn on these cretins.

What gets people worked up initially gets normalised afterwards. So you need a new one every now and then.

Did the Jews start accepting Hitler once they got used to being shipped off to the gas-chamber? No. Of course not. One can get worked up by an imaginary threat- e.g. that the World will end because of a Mayan prophesy. But when the thing doesn't happen, most people become immune to that type of panic.

But moral panics in general can keep being generated, and you’re completely right to say that the toxicity is contagious. No one trusts anyone any more. and that mistrust can lead to a heightened sense of panic in which people strike out at each other because they believe they have to attack or be attacked.

This is certainly happening to the Opposition. Who can trust Congress? It may ally with the Shiv Sena. What of the Left? Mamta isn't going to let them use this agitation as a way to escape regular beating.

It’s self-defeating in the sense that it’s almost impossible to overcome—its effects last for generations, its traumas are passed on and inherited.

Very true. Suppose you lie that you have a well paying job. You manage to get a flat and a spouse on the basis of your lies. But after a few months, your landlord kicks you out. You and your spouse have a baby while living on the street. A Charity offers to help you. But you lie to them that you have a well paid job. You teach your kids to tell similar lies. Thus from generation to generation you and your progeny continue to live on the streets. Stupid lies can lead to 'inherited traumas'. But the solution is simple. Tell stupid liars to go fuck themselves.

Whether that’s more devastating than the current violence—I don’t know yet—we can’t really know whether the detention camps being built will really turn into the style of death camps that we have historically known, and I hope people are not willing to wait that long. Meanwhile, the everyday violence will also continue.

Why stop there? The fact is, we can't know if that new building coming up near the bus-stop isn't the headquarters of the Alien invaders who will turn us all into unicorns and then have sex with our horns. I hope people are not willing to wait to find out. We must commit suicide immediately to avert a fate worse than death for our species.

What, then, is your prognosis for the immediate future? Will it be possible to stop this machinery before it does more damage?

Historians don’t usually know much about the future.

Or the present.

But it’s clear that a lot of damage has already been done.

Because the aliens have almost finished building their headquarters next to the bus-stop. Also I had a dream where I was a unicorn? And this alien butt was closing in on me? I mean, what more proof do you need? Wake up sheeple! Cut your throats now, while you still have a chance.

A divided society has been further divided.

A divided Opposition has been further divided. The Hindu vote, at least for the Lok Sabha elections, has been further consolidated.

We won’t know for sure what the consequences are for a while even if it stops now. People are trying to make changes. A few million people on the streets believe that it is important to stop the machinery of hatred now.

By expressing their hatred for non Muslim refugees. That's bound to endear them to Hindus.

If people can stay mobilised, organised, and can agree on a common minimum programme,

and a common religion and language and theme song and if they can all fit into the same pair of underpants

it should be possible, by direct democracy, to make a change now. It’s a first step, but an important one.

Because a single pair of pants occupied by millions of people will be an even more hilarious sight if it takes a first step and then a second till finally it is doing the Risky Business dance.

What do you have to say about the millions risking life and limb out on the streets to protest this regime?

Thank you for your imbecility. You are making me look cool to my German students.

I think many of us have been wondering why it has taken the Indian people so long to realise that if they don’t act themselves, rather than waiting for someone to act on their behalf, they will lose all their freedoms.

Indian people? This is a Muslim protest. They have been fooled by cynical politicians.

It’s a moment of optimism and immense hope to see ordinary people on the streets, in most cases not led by any political party, who have all been hopelessly inept.

I see ordinary people on the streets everyday. They are going to work or to school or doing their shopping. That's a good thing. Seeing people sitting on the streets asking for the moon is not a hopeful sign. It shows that there are a lot of stupid and ignorant people around. Remember the Occupy Wall Street movement? that sure turned out swell. 00

I grew up in India, and I took our political freedoms for granted,

Why? Surely the fellow heard about the Emergency? Furthermore, as a student in Calcutta, did he really think the Left Front Government was protecting 'political freedoms'?

so I don’t entirely blame anyone for watching the shrinking of spaces of dissent with a sense of disbelief.

We did feel a sense of disbelief when Mamta crushed the Left Front. Then we realized it had only kept itself in power by using thugs. Mamta's thugs were better at beating people. So the Left's space has shrunk.

And this sense of disbelief meant that people took time to realise they had to act for themselves.

By hightailing it to Germany to do 'Research'.

This is a protest catalysed by the CAA and NRC, but the people of India have many reasons to be dissatisfied.

But not having Benji around is not one of them.

The economy is in a mess. Students are being attacked by paid thugs of the government in their universities, ordinary people are being lynched by Sanghis in many parts of the country.

The economy is genuinely in a mess. But beating stupid students is popular. Killing cow traffickers is popular in States where the cow is sacred.

Perhaps because everyone feels attacked, there is a broad coalition that has come together.

Where is the coalition? The truth is nobody feels attacked. The BJP is losing States. Mamta is not going to leave any opening for either Congress or the Left Front. Sooner or later, Muslim women in the streets will be forced back home to cook and clean. Their brief holiday will be over and they'll have nothing to show for it.

The solidarity of people from across professions, classes, castes and religions is very good to see. Students stand with trade unions, Dalits and Sikhs and caste Hindus with Muslims, and women are playing a leading role in the struggle. Still, this is a coalition, and different people want different outcomes from the struggle.

The problem is that the struggle is against an imaginary evil. Thus the thing is bound to collapse.

Unfortunately, while the world has noticed that Indian democracy is fighting for its life, this may not be enough when the government is willing to use violence, both through official state channels and through unofficial ones. In the great non-violent protests of the colonial era, the colonial rulers believed that the use of violence against peaceful protestors would delegitimise its rule. This government doesn’t seem to be concerned about loss of legitimacy.

Perhaps this guy also thinks French democracy is fighting for its life. Macron's use of violence has lost him legitimacy.

But we can be cautiously optimistic, even as we fear for our friends and family who are on the frontlines of the protests. ‘We, the people of India’, the phrase that opens the preamble to the constitution, makes more sense than ever now.

It makes the same sense then as it does now. The Constitution has Cow Protection as a Directive Principle. It does not grant any settlement rights to non-citizens. The people of India have elected Modi. He is doing what the Indian people want. His acts are Constitutional. Some guy with dreadlocks at a German University can be as cautiously optimistic as he likes. The day may yet come when a neo-Nazi kicks his head in coz of the color of his skin.